Soundtrack Review: Avatar by James Horner (2009)

I loved this score. Horner achieved in grabbing the emotional components from the film into his score. I agree with you that people are making too big a deal about his 4 note motif. I love it and it works.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 14th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

And that is exactly what we want. You have understood it. You can’t argue with great music. and this is great music.

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agreed.

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this score should’ve been composed by hans zimmer or steve jablonsky or Brian Tyler.

Their scores are always epic.
sonicballer8888´s last blog ..The Island (2005) – Movie Review

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I’m quite happy with Horner on this one. Tyler is in a rut right now, but he’ll bounce back. Jablonsky is very variable, but we know he can do great stuff. Zimmer still shines, but this was always a Horner score and I’m glad it stayed that way.

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Wow Daddy!You stand by your remark… Ok then, If you say so then God himself must agree!

I do agree that people who criticize James Horner for repeating his own music are barking at the wrong tree. It’s his music. He can do whatever he wants with it! Copy himself? Why not? Jim Steinman does it all the time with his song writing and we don’t mind, do we? If the director agrees… it’s his problem.

But i also undestand some of the criticisms as well.

If i was the director, i’d prefer Mr. Horner to come up with something truly original instead of copying a melody from another movie. Even if it’s a melody that he wrote. After you listen to a movie. The score becomes “one” with the film. Emotion you feel while watching the film are directly linked with the music. So to have that same music or part of it attached to another movie can feel strange. What if you heard part of the Titanic melody while listening to an important story line of “Avatar”? Wouldn’t that throw you off? Even though you blindly love James Horner?

I don’t agree with you saying that James Horner is the best when it comes to writing music that underlines the action on the screen. It’s too easy. That’s like saying Danny Elfman is the best at writing funny-horror melodies or that Hans Zimmer is the best at writing epic-heroic-sad music. Or that John Williams is the best at writing sing-along music for heroes.

You love James Horner and that’s fine. He’s one of the great. But let’s keep some distance between our passion for a composer and reality.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:51 pm

The argument about Titanic has been used before, but it fails every time. Titanic, Star Wars, Back To The Future has signature themes that can’t be compared to “parts” of other scores, I just don’t see that logic at all. But to answer your question, of course that would be weird and throw me off. But seriously, it’s not even an issue.

Yes I like James Horner, but this review isn’t about James Horner, it’s about Avatar. I don’t care if James Horner, John Williams, Jeff Rona or Rachel Portman wrote this score as long as it’s good. I have said this before and I’ll say it again. Why not judge the score by it’s music instead of blindly obsessing about composers?

The fact is, the music is great. If I didn’t know who the composer was, the music will still be great. That isn’t so hard to understand is it?

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Eli Reply:
January 7th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

I have never gone through and reviewed soundtracks. I love music for movies, but I don’t think of myself as any expert. I just have a few soundtracks that I really love over time, I didn’t even know the exact names.

I just know that I have the Glory Soundtrack that I bought a very long time ago because I loved it!

When I heard the similarity in Avatar last week, it jolted me out of the movie for a moment (otherwise, I was totally engrossed!). I think there is merit to criticism about this. A melody that is so closely associated to another movie should be avoided, because it definitely has an impact. I don’t specifically pay attention to soundtracks, but the same notes were so obvious that it was impossible not to be distracted by that. So I googled it to see if others have heard the same, and of course they have so here I am.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 7th, 2010 at 9:33 pm

I have gotten to a point where every movie I see, I can hear a passage I’ve heard before whether it’s Horner, Zimmer, Marianelli, Elfman or Giacchino. You can’t avoid it because no composer, no matter how good he or she is haven’t heard the billions of music tracks out there. You were just “unlucky” that you have such a relationship with Glory that it jolted you out of the movie. I think Glory is a wonderful score and I must have listened to it a thousand times by now. I immediately recognized it in the movie as well and I thought it fitted the movie perfectly and made me smile even more.

The criticism is surely warranted, but it’s funny that Horner get it the hardest when there are so many “sinners” out there.

I guess the discussion becomes so big because of our united love for Horner and the worry that it might tarnish his image more. Just a theory

Alison Reply:
February 10th, 2010 at 3:46 am

I haven’t even seen Avatar yet, and I work in a movie theater. But I have been in the cinema during the movie at certain parts, and I have heard pieces of music that made me stop and turn around to look at the screen to see if it was Avatar or Titanic playing. There are small pieces of music that sound (to me) like they were lifted right from the Titanic score and then had the rest of the song built around them. I don’t really know anything about composers, and I loved the Titanic score, but it definitely threw me off a little and it felt kind of… lazy, I guess? Those little pieces of music automatically made me think of Titanic when I heard them. They were either identical or VERY similar to some of the music from that movie.

Jorn Tillnes Reply:
February 10th, 2010 at 4:44 am

It seems to be an issue with some people. Most luckily don’t get too affected by the re-use of earlier music and just enjoy it for what Avatar is, a great movie and a great score. Hopefully you will be able to as well.

Stefan Almqvist Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

I totally agree. There has almost always been “plagiarism” in movie scores, and music overall. It’s just noticed more by the critics when the movie and composer are this big. If some people can’t get past that then it saddens me to say that’s their loss, they’re missing out on a great music experience!

I certainly had no idea until recently that Williams’ main title for Star Wars bears a striking, almost embarrassing resemblance to Erich Wolfgang Korngold’s main title for 1942′s Kings Row. Ripped or not, if the music works with the movie, and if I can close my eyes and feel and see a story I’m happy with it. I’ve gotta say Horner really jerked a few tears from the corner of my eye on this one , especially on Climbing Up ”Iknimaya – The Path To Heaven”. As long as a movie score can do that to me and create a full experience on its own, then that’s all I need. Well done Horner!

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 12:30 pm

Hmm Kings Row you say! Better rustle up that old CD and have a listen. The truth is that everyone plagiarize to some degree. No one has listened to every piece of music ever made, but if they did (and remembered it all) they would find that everyone copies from one another (and themselves).

Sorry Jorn Its not the way u think
Horner is always Been Great ….
Ya its fact that he reuses some of his cues but tht dat he is no way good …..
How Can A Score which is not perfect in itself will be perfect For Any movie ………
Ha…. ha…. ha….
what a stupid comment ……

It must be relevent for tht concept otherwise why it will get nominated for golden globe…

And one more thing u people compare
james Horner with … steve jablonsky or Brian Tyler
Are u people kidding …

Anyway i love Honer And He Is Great in His Own Way ….

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

Fact: Horner is not always great. There has been some not so great ones during his long career. Humainoids From The Deep, I Love You To Death, Heaven Help Us, Vibes to name a few.

Interesting. You are indicating that music will be exactly as good with or without images? You actually mean that music has no emotional component when fused with images within for example a movie? Well I could understand that if you were a robot, only analyzing the musical components as 0′s and 1′s, but you aren’t… are you?

The fact is, listening to a score on it’s own and listening to it while watching the very movie it was created for is two completely different things. There are numerous examples of scores that are better in the movie than they are without and vice versa.

I do agree that there is a link between the movie and the music when it comes to awards, but I could argue why it shouldn’t be as important as it is. There should definitely be more emphasis on the music itself instead of the link to the movie, in my humble opinion of course.

As for comparison, ask me in 5-10 years. Brian Tyler could get there, Jablonsky I’m not so sure but one can always hope. We really do need more great composers

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I agree with the review totally.

At least we got one epic blockbuster action score this year where real orchestra and choir dominates instead of synths. I like the score a lot, especially the second half. It’s not as good as Debneys Lair (one of the best scores from the past 5 years for me) but it comes in the neighborhood.

While I love Zimmer and Jablonsky with there electronics and simplicity it is nice to get something else that we don’t get a lot these days. I don’t mind about the reuse of stuff. If something that you written before is good then why not use it again or make it even better. Almost every composer, writer, film maker, … does reuse stuff of himself or others in one way or another. As long as it is good stuff that gets reused I don’t mind at all. Zimmer and Jablonsky are reusing their soundtracks for years now and nobody complains…

It’s my first Horner score I have ever listened to so any other recommendations of his work that is equal or better in quality are appreciated

On negative point though: why oh why is Lisbeth Scott featured on every soundtrack that includes etnic singing. Aren’t there other singers out there.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 16th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

Glad we agree As for James Horner scores, my favorite is The Perfect Storm. Also check out Krull, Star Trek II and Braveheart.

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The way James Horner composes is a perplexing mystery. Think of him for a moment a celebrity chef who never bakes or cooks without adding something from his abundant store of ‘things I prepared earlier’: a pinch of the recycled here and a dash of the the reused there, sprinked in along with whatever fresh ingredients he chooses to bring to the table. As a result, he never produces anything completely original; everthing is referenced to a greater or lesser extent to his previous scores. Yet despite the adoption of this questionable methodology, Horner has nevertheless managed to deliver at least one memorable score virtually every year since 1982, which is quite remarkable when you think about it. Fans shouldn’t expect the ‘Avatar’ score to be created any differently to the others. Now well into his 50s, Horner is not about to change his modus operandi.

One must ponder why Horner makes such a point of revisiting his old ideas when he clearly has the ability to generate new ones, and particularly when writing comes so naturally and effortlessly to him. I have considered this a good deal. The only answer I can come up with is that Horner feels his entire contribution to composition for film should be viewed as connected elements of a single work, which is yet to be finished, and not as a long series of stand-alone scores for each movie he has been involved with. In other words, Horner wants us to appreciate the whole narrative contained in the book, and not be hung up on the quality of the individual chapters. Put another way, if each score can be thought of as a brick, Horner wants the listener to be less concerned with the bricks themselves, but more open to the nature of the house he is building with them.

Therefore, the frequently obvious similarities noted between the scores, the recurring ideas that link them together, while often frustrating and confounding his many fans, is a side to his work that exists by design rather than chance. The concepts of change and continuity in the compilation of a coherent body of work that is highly personal and uniquely his own, are ones that matter to James Horner as he follows the path of his artistic journey. Fans may hold up and debate the merits and demerits of this score or that score, including the new one for ‘Avatar’, but Horner’s mind remains focused on the ‘Big Picture’, ie the total aural landscape fashioned over the course of a life, which should be understood in all its Glory as a single great composition, although in reality comprising many smaller entities that fit together neatly by reason of shared characteristics and common threads. Ultimately, as the cliche puts it, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Who knows what goes on inside the mind of a composer, especially James Horner. It’s a mystery, and unlikely to be solved anytime soon. It’s only a theory, but I welcome any comments.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:36 pm

He does get people talking doesn’t he? It’s interesting to note that the score to Avatar is so far the critic’s choice this year (based on 4 reviews). I think he is standing firm on his music and it is his signature, his personality after all.

I am 97% sure that Horner does it on purpose, revisiting old scores and themes. Like you said, he has the talent to create something new and fresh every time, but would it still be the James Horner we all know and love? I don’t think so.

I like James Horner, I really do, and I’m not only talking about his musical skills. He stands up for what he believes in and is not afraid to say it. He really doesn’t give a damn if people criticize him for recycling of music, and that really appeals to me.

I also know for a fact that some of the directors James works with wants him to use a style he has done before, and in the end, the director calls the shots. Still, he bullied Cameron to included “My Heart Will Go On” and that just goes to shows Horner got some major influence.

It’s an enigma for sure, and he has been confronted with it a few times in interviews. His answers has usually been that all the great ones does it, and that he will be criticized whether he comes up with something brand new or re-using music.

Whatever the real reason is, he is loved and hated. Can’t wait to see what he comes up with in 2010!

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Andre Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 2:02 pm

That’s the first time I read the Horner phenomenon explained in that way, Talocan, but spot-on! It is exactly how I see it, but couldnt put it into words. I for one adore the 4-note danger motif (Actually there’s two types: ALIENS/STAR TREK III type and then the generally used upward climbing one)The ALIENS danger motif was frantic and creepy at the same time, bravo Horner.

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ken wiggins Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

As I continue to listen to the score, I have become struck by what appears to be the superfluous nature of the 4-note motif on the Avatar cues. By that I mean that if the motif were simply erased from the finished recording, the music would not suffer in any way for its loss, and there would be the added bonus that Horner fans would not have to hotly debate its presence on yet another of his scores! There are three blasts of it on ‘You Dont Dream…’, which is my favourite cue on the cd. If the brass instrument playing it were taken out, the cue is no less excellent. We hear it about six times over the beautiful slow finale to ‘The Destruction of Hometree’. Again, the music works wonderfully well without the motif blowing on top of it. It turns up twice in amongst those amazing vocals on ‘Shutting Down Grace’s Lab’, where it definitely serves only as an unnecessary distraction. So really we have to wonder what Horner’s intentions are when he writes and arranges great music for the film, material which is fully realised, only to ‘brand’ it with the dreaded four-noter. We must assume that he feels the motif is genuinely bringing something to the mix, that it provides the finishing touch needed on each of those cues. Well, I think I can speak for every Horner fan when I say: JH, don’t try and improve your music with the addition of the four note motif-it’s absolutely perfect without it!

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Andre Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 5:42 am

I agree with you, but I think Horner is very much in tune with using music to provoke an emotional response. Let’s look at “Shutting Down Grace’s Lab” It’s a definite mood build, that cycles, so he brings motif in at regular intervals to match the slowmo visuals, concentrating on characters’emotions/body language, the music imho, is there to keep my emotions on a constant high, until i am sobbing through the clashing beautiful vocals. That, by the way is Horner like i never heard before, not even TROY. I think the only place in Horner’s career where the motif becomer irritating to me, is ENEMY AT THE GATES. I was hoping to hear Horner come up with his own swing on Russian sounding scoring and I was disappointed.

I haven’t heard the ‘Avatar’ score yet, but I am looking forward to it, as I do every Horner score. I think expectations are greatly raised in this instance. On the one hand, people are expecting something special based on the high quality of the two previous collaborations between Horner and Cameron. On the other hand, both men are really stretched in terms of the pronouncements made in advance of the release of the film, Cameron promising a film like no other the audience has seen before, and Horner waxing lyrical about a year spent on producing music unlike any heard before. Time will tell whether, based on results, the two have succeeded in matching such hightened expectations. I gather from the review that one of the cues marks the return of Horner’s signature ’4-note motif’. This is difficult to square with his statements to the effect that ‘Avatar’ would contain new music, played on new instruments and so forth. Given that Horner worked on this project for a year or so, he certainly had time to write a satisfactory musical alternative, and it must be assumed that the inclusion of the well-worn 4-note motif is quite deliberate. As I argue, the mixing into a score of familiar elements with a distinctive recognition factor seems to be fundamental to the way Horner works, and we can only speculate as to why that is the case. Perhaps every score has to feature the stamp of Horner’s own ‘brand’, something that clearly distinguishes it from work produced by his fellow film composers. Anyway, as a Horner fan you have to accept the presence of unique aural signatures sown into the fabric of his work. Seasoned Horner listeners like me have learned to live with it, and for anyone unfamiliar with his prolific output, perhaps even hearing his music for the first time while viewing ‘Avatar’, it certainly won’t be a problem.

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The cannibalization bothers me when it takes me out of the movie and back to another movie I’ve seen. For instance, there are distinct elements from Khan’s motif from “Star Trek II” (1982) that I immediately noticed. I was kind of watching the movie with friends and joking about Na’vi raves anyhow, but it was still a bit jarring.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

I can see that. I filter these thing out so it doesn’t ruin the movie experience. The only time I was bothered about the music was when I was watching Mission to Mars. Morricone’s score sounded like Bambi on ice. Other than that, I have always enjoyed movies where Horner scores. He never fails to impress, and hits the scenes with great music. Khan’s motif is great, but hardly memorable enough (for me) to cause any reaction other than “This is pretty awesome”.

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David Fuchs Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

In terms of Horner appropriations, it wasn’t his most blatant, but me being a hardcore Trekkie and having the expanded score to the film I picked it up quickly. I’ll have to borrow the Avatar soundtrack from someone and see if I can find it in the OST just so I can do a side-by-side comparison

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing about the 4-note motif. I listened to the soundtrack and couldn’t for the life of me detect why that cue was so familiar.

Does anyone know any other movies or shows that may have used that same cue? I feel like I’ve heard it but just can’t place it.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 4:27 am

Try any James Horner score and you have a great chance of finding it. I recently listened to Enemy at the Gates and it’s definitely there as well. One of Horner’s many trademarks.

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GR7 Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 11:34 am

hello.
Try the Zorro movie soundtracks from horner and you will find the 4-note motif (especially in the last tracks)

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truths Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

Willow, Troy…and the list goes on and on.

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I felt that the score was actually one of the single weakest elements of Avatar. I recently listened to an interview with Horner on the score, and he repeatedly told of an exchange between himself and Cameron about how the director wanted an equally “new” and “groundbreaking” musical language and epic soundscape to match the amazing visuals. The visuals were certainly amazing, and the score was certainly epic, but new is the last thing I would call it. In the same interview, Horner speaks of not wanting to use “crazy/weird scales” to make to the score progressive; instead wanting to do it orchestrationally, using exotic instrumentation choices and new timbres,which is totally fine. The thing is, he doesnt do this at all in the score. I couldnt help thinking while sitting in the movie “Who does this guy think he’s fooling?!” You’ve made your point about the 4 note danger theme, but to me that is just the tip of the iceberg (sorry). Instead of creating something new, he does what he has been doing for years now, which is to borrow sounds and motifs from not only his own music, but others as well (you mentioned Rach., and I heard many others) You say this doesnt matter. Cool. I don’t think you don’t know what youre talking about, but this is why I think it matters A LOT.
Firstly, as someone mentioned before, filmmakers want a specific “flavor” for their movies. They want something new and original. This truth is quadrupled in Cameron’s case. He doesnt just want something new. He wants something groundbreaking man! And his movie is that. It really is. And the score fits the tone of the movie just fine (like you said, Horner is good at this, though often a little too manipulative for my taste), and he knows how to paint to the emotions. But this is not a “new” score.
Secondly, this constant re hash of material (not just in this film) hurts the film because it fails to challenge the audience. Someone earlier said it was “too easy”. I couldnt agree more. I think Horner misunderestimates audience intellegence to such a degree with this score, that I’d be willing to bet that even the common movie-goer will recognize things that they have heard in other films, and respond negatively to it, even if they can’t place where it’s from. It stops you thinking of what youre watching, and gets you thinking of something else for a moment. Sure, not everyone is going to be soundtrack geeks like you and me and yell, “That was almost the entire main theme from ‘Glory’ right there!! Did anybody else hear that!?”, but it still brings something to the image that is not associated with THIS film, and again. It is NOT NEW. James Horner can keep doing his thing for decades and you can keep loving him, but the bottom line is that he failed this film in that he did not write something new, much less groundbreaking. What really bothers me though, is that it doesnt appear that he tried. Had he written a 100% electronic experimental 80′s throw back sci-fi score, it may have really turned people off, but it would have been a risk. And that is what is really missing here. No risk. Sorry for this incredibly lengthy rant, I hope it doesnt sound like I’m hating too much, I just wanted to throw my hat in

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 4:58 am

James Cameron got exactly what he wanted from Horner (yet again) so the argument that he wants something different doesn’t hold water I’m afraid.

Yes it is not a new score, but by “new” Horner meant a musical language, or rather musical instruments that he created for the film worthy of the Na’Vi. If you analyze the score beat for beat, I’m sure you will notice what he was talking about. To “old” ears like yours and mine, it might not sound that different from he usual trickery.

But seriously, if you sit in the cinema watching Avatar and goes “Hey, that’s the exact same piece he used in Glory!” instead of enjoying the movie, well… I love scores just as the next person, but I certainly didn’t try to nitpick during the movie. I have yet to see a movie where I feel sick because I heard the music before. What I did notice was how beautiful it all sounded. It was perfectly crafted to fit James Cameron’s visuals, and it seems to me you agree, but you can’t let go of the fact that Horner re-uses music (which is nothing new by the way). I didn’t go into the cinema thinking “Oh no… I just know I can’t enjoy this movie because Horner will use some of his older music”. I’m sure many did, and I feel sorry for those who did, because Avatar was spectacular and to me the music was excellent. Who knew James Horner’s made music that works in several movies.

James Horner recently said in an interview that he couldn’t make something completely new because the audience wouldn’t enjoy an experimental score. So let me ask you this. If Horner would have come up with something brand new, and I mean brand new, experimental jazz or something, would it be good for the movie? No!

James Cameron chose Horner because he knew exactly what he was getting and though you might not like it, Horner succeded in Cameron’s eyes. He succeeded in my eyes and he succeded in the critics eyes. Now I’m sorry he didn’t succeed in your eyes, because it truly is a wonderful score that I enjoy more and more every time I listen to it.

I’m so neither Horner or Cameron took a risk here. Whenever I listen to a Horner score I hope he comes up with something lie this. It feels grand, it feels familiar, it feels like home. And surprise, surprise, Horner impresses again. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I’d rather take something familiar that I know works, than something new and experimental that might not work at all. Tried and tested my friend, never change a winning team and in my eyes, Cameron and Horner are the best at what they do when they are together.

Don’t feel bad about a lengthy rant. It was a great one, and please feel free to reply to this “lengthy” rant.

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“The last cue War is a wonderfully epic and choral ending cue. It is 11 minutes and 22 seconds long , and every second of it is great. One of the best action cues this year for sure.”

Jorn, can you not add a few lines to this review at this point and actually give us some dirt on this cue? It’s the one everyone is talking about and from this review i gleamed nothing about what it sounds like and how it makes the listener feel. I only know that you loved every second of it, but why? I must know! Other than that your review made me curious about a score that I previously had less than zero anticipation for regardless of the hype.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 2:19 pm

Really? Zero anticipation? I’ll add some details

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Yeah, Horner hasn’t excited me in the slightest since A Perfect Storm (one of the finest scores of the decade in my opinion) and that was 9 years ago, add to that it was very hard to get excited about a CGI fest with blue people running around in the ferngully forests, all things AVATAR have been a bit snooze-inducing for me — thanks for going into more detail, now I actually know whaat to expect. I still think Williams’ Machine Vs Tribe cue “The Battle Of The Ewoks from Jedi is the best example of something like this. Hard to see that this could be even on par with the stuff he did in that score, but I’ll certainly give it a go!

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm

Why don’t you try before you buy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQEY2kBbnAY

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I went to see ‘Avatar’ yesterday afternoon at the Savoy in Dublin, and while it was a great experience, the score has left me with a sense of disappointment. Your review warned me to be prepared for the ’4-note motif’, and hearing it several times definitely took from the enjoyment of the movie. I also recognised the gently floating ‘forest’ motif that emerged in ‘The New World’ and was incorporated into ‘Apocalypto’ as well. Apart from that, I had a couple of ‘Four Feathers’ moments into the bargain. The mixing in of recognisable markers is an aspect of Horner’s work that remains firmly embedded in his style, but I think the impact is more damaging on this occasion. Horner is on record that his ‘Avatar’ score is different from anything he has previously done, but the inclusion of the ‘four-note motif’ and other familiar musical elements is very much at odds with such statements. Instead of using the ‘Avatar’ project as a vehicle for reminding us all that he is the best in the business, Horner is at risk of giving his detractors yet more ammunition by exhibiting uncomfortable signs of musical redundancy. We are told that he spent a year working with Cameron on this score, which is surely long enough for every cue to be gleaming and newly minted, and not tainted by the worn coppers of old currency. I expected Horner to silence his critics with what he had up his sleeve on this one (and it is only natural for a composer to be inspired by a revolutionary piece of filming like ‘Avatar’), but the end results suggest that Horner has made it easy for critics to pick holes in his ‘new music’ claims. I agree that in the initial instance Horner would have to be guided by what director James Cameron wanted. The ‘Avatar’ score comes across as relatively conventional, particularly in comparision with the score of ‘Apocalypto’, another tale of suspense and violence in a hostile jungle environment. Clearly, Mel Gibson didn’t want conventional melody and harmony on the soundtrack of ‘Apocalypto’, and it is interesting to listen to the effective and powerful results produced by Horner when mainstream musical conventions are jettisoned. On the other hand, it must be presumed that Cameron wanted Horner to deliver work that was more thematically structured, and musically memorable, and Horner does not attempt to experiment with anything that might be too much of a stretch for the audience. The music for the two films is radically different, the ‘Apocalypto’score uncompromising and harsh, the score for ‘Avatar’ aimed more at a mass audience and presumably big sales on the back of the Leona Lewis tune. The question is whether Horner’s work on ‘Avatar’ is out of the top drawer or perhaps only second-rate. I don’t want to sound too critical a note, as my opinion will be more fully informed in due course by careful listening to the cd, which I haven’t bought yet. However, cinema audiences that found the experience of ‘Braveheart’ and ‘Titanic’ considerably enhanced by the compelling nature of the music on offer, may come away feeling that their enjoyment of ‘Avatar’ owed a good deal less to the quality of the music that accompanied the screening.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 21st, 2009 at 4:13 pm

No warning required. It’s James Horner after all, but personally I loved it when he did the 4-note motif. It set me right at piece. “Aaah, it’s good old James”, and I was right. It was a hit from the start, a beautiful synchronization of sounds and images the way only Cameron and Horner could come up with.

Just because there’s the 4-note motif and bits of music hear before, doesn’t automatically qualify it as “heard it all before”. It’s a new Horner score to me and I certainly enjoyed it, the new parts as well as the old.

As far as Titanic and Braveheart goes, I was just as satisfied then as I was when watching Avatar. To add to the whole thing, there’s a lot of music in the movie not featured on the CD, some of which would enhance the end product which I already love. I’m sure there will be a “More Music From Avatar” coming as this is such a score of high demand in similar vein to Braveheart and Titanic. I can hardly wait!

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I am not a soundtrack expert, but I got online just to find out why the four-note ‘danger’ music in Avatar was a complete rip-off of that from The Perfect Storm. People here obviously love James Horner and defend his re-using it, but it’s totally LAME, I say. You don’t take a totally recognizable bit of music and use it again in the soundtrack to the most expensive movie ever made. He couldn’t come up with something original? It’s indefensible to me.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 5:25 am

I personally don’t see the big deal. It’s not a theme, it’s a device he uses to propel the action. It’s a 4-note motif that does the job and to top it all off, it’s really short. Yes, it’s know to us “soundtrack geeks”, but to the rest of the world, it’s just another small piece of music that goes well with what’s happening on screen. I don’t think the score would be any better if he left it off to be honest.

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Ken Wiggins Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:34 pm

The four-note motif considerably pre-dates ‘The Perfect Storm’, being audible on ‘Willow’ (1988), a score that many would regard as one of the cornerstones of Horner’s career. I agree that in general Horner tends to use it with a certain restraint and more as a type of musical punctuation, being present on occasion but without ever taking over a score. The exception would have to be ‘Enemy at the Gates’, where Horner gave the ‘four-noter’ considerably more prominence than ever before, and it could be argued that repeated bombardment by the motif left the score, pretty much like the city of Stalingrad itself, in a heap of ruins. I feel that Horner has pulled back from it somewhat since then, but it popped up in a most inappropriate moment during funeral sequence of the recent ‘Boy in the Stripped Pyjamas’. If I were advisor to Horner on that project I would have strongly urged him to compose an alternative cue for that scene. In general, I can live with it as a Horner signature; for me it grates on the soundtrack of ‘Avatar’ simply because of those interviews given by Horner in which he stressed how different this score is from his other work. Taking those remarks at face value, the return of the ‘four-noter’ in ‘Avatar’ means that Horner is either deluding himself, or else having a joke at our expense. Granted, the motif only takes up a fraction of time in the course of a score that would probably fill three cds in length, and its airing here can in no way be compared with the overuse inflicted on the score of ‘Enemy at the Gates’.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 8:55 am

I think people get caught up in the hype. James Horner has always been in the line of fire, but its strange that people get so hung up on this 4-note motif. Its so short and quick and hardly a major theme, its a device he uses to propel the action on screen. Personally I dont feel bothered by it as it is a kind of familiarity that never gets old in my opinion.

People hear what they want to hear, and I think a lot of people want to hate from the beginning, even before they heard the score. Sad but true.

Saw the movie.

Shame they used so much ‘boring’ music from the first half of the movie on the score and omitted much action music from the second half. I hope there is gonna be another soundtrack release someday or an expanded edition like they sometimes do with very popular soundtracks. Esp. the track War should have been included in full 25 minutes version imo…

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:51 am

I think there will be a “More Music From Avatar” release, at least that’s what I’m hoping. As for “War”, maybe it’s perfect the way it is. If you extend it to 25 minutes I’m sure a lot of parts will be repeated. How about we meet halfway and make a 16 minutes “War Suite”?

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Talocan Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 pm

I don’t know if they do a second release in the near future. Is that typical for Horner of Cameron? But I don’t know if the demand is high enough for that. But I surely hope so.

They should better do this for Transformers 2 too

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

Not typical for Cameron/Horner, although they did get one for Titanic.

S. Tyler Reply:
December 29th, 2009 at 6:37 am

i’ve read just about every comment on this article hoping to have my issue with the soundtrack addressed and Talocan seems to be the only person to touch on my problem.

i’ve seen Avatar three times and plan on seeing it again. not only do i love the movie itself but part of the appeal has to do with the music. i was happy and not all too surprised that Horner was the composer. i enjoy his work and once i knew it was him i could detect a bit of a Horner-flair.

i bought the soundtrack and though i enjoy it very much, i am disappointed that there seem to be some gaps in the music…especially from the second half of the movie like Talocan says. even the titles hint at these gaps. For example, so much goes on between “Shutting Down Grace’s Lab” and “Gathering All the Na’Vi Clans for Battle.” in fact one of my favorite parts of the music goes on in this gap and i’m sad it’s not on the soundtrack. **SPOILER ALERT** the scene i’m talking about is the scene where the Na’Vi gather around Home Tree to save Grace. i LOVE the tribal chanting and beating of drums during this scene as well as the similar scene of Jake’s ceremony at the end…HOWEVER, it’s not on the soundtrack!!!

I wanna know why? and if there is even a possibility this music will ever be released like Talocan says????

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 30th, 2009 at 7:50 am

I sure hope so. There must be 2-3 hours of music in the movie and some scenes like the ones you mentioned has wonderful music, so I really hope they release more music from Avatar.

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S. Tyler Reply:
December 31st, 2009 at 10:05 am

Would i be stupid to ask if there was any way a person outside of Hollywood could encourage the release of this extra music??

i ask this because i know there are such things as petitions for tv shows that have been cancelled but people want it to come back so they sign it.

is it silly of me to ask if there is such a thing in order to ‘ensure’ a deluxe edition?? or do we Avatar Soundtrack/James Horner lovers have to just hope and pray that Hollywood sees the advantage of releasing this music??

Also, Talocan, i like how you mentioned the chanting in “Shutting Down Grace’s Lab.” i’ll have you know that this is one of the songs that i have given a five star rating on my ipod for that reason. and i do have to agree that the layering of the music and chanting loses the appeal that i find in the songs that are missing.

Talocan Reply:
December 30th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

Funny cause while I was typing my comment back then I had exactly the same songs in mind that you mentioned.

Let’s hope for the best and that they release another deluxe version even if it is only digital.

The tribal chanting (of singer Lisbeth Scott) you mention is also in the track ‘Shutting down grace lab’ however it is layered there.

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I completely agree with your assessment of the score. I thought that James Cameron’s use of themes and motifs from previous works only enhanced my appreciation for the film.

A part of the War cue starting at 7:09 has been stuck in my head and it sounds very familiar. Was that used in other scores by Horner?

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 25th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

Agreed! I’ll have to listen closely to the War cue and see if it rings a bell. I hear it too, but I know I have heard that sequence in a 80s or 90s pop track which I can’t remember.

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After viewing the film, I didn’t really remember the music even though I’d told myself I wanted to listen for it. (Indication of a score that didn’t have problems.) I purchased the soundtrack immediately after the first visit and have since been listening to it a lot.

There are subtle similarities with other music, yes, but it seems a lot of people may be missing the point: The types of similarities between works by the same artist, are those not what make that artist true to a certain character that you are drawn to? The formulas and motifs, whatever you want to break music up into, have an ability to speak to you (or not) and if they are successful and fit the picture, then deviating from them too far results in something that doesn’t work.

I for one am extremely satisfied with this score. I have really enjoyed it both on and off screen.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Indeed a lot of people fail to see the big picture here and get stuck in details they knew before they started listening. Overall the score is wonderful, just wish the theme was up to Horner standards, but even without a strong presence there it shines through and through.

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Agreed with your review…

except for the “main theme” part. I really liked this theme. Simple, but full of emotion in Horner hands, just as the Na’vi are. Maybe the problem here is that you probably can’t remember it well once the film is over, but i don’t find that a bad thing.

Anyway, that are just details. For me this was a perfect score, hands down, and the great merit of Horner (and it’s something he should be proud of) is that this score helps you (in fact, it makes you) connect with the world of Pandora, feeling it familiar, epic and amazing at the same time.

Thanks for your review!

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 29th, 2009 at 4:53 am

Indeed, mere details, because this is a wonderful score from start to finish.

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Well, I just saw the movie Avatar recently (and subsequently listened to the soundtrack). It was beautifully done, I loved it; such a breath of fresh air compared to the trash that’s been floating through theaters this year.

James Horner is a brilliant composer, there is no doubt, and I love a lot of his scores. However, despite all the discussion about the score being so “uniquely Horner” and this 4-note-motif business, I did not recognize the score as being uniquely Horner-esque…call me crazy, but I walked into the theater without a clue who wrote the soundtrack, and walked out feeling as though it was rather bland for such a visually stunning and vibrant film.

If I may be brief, I have a few major criticisms of the soundtrack, and how it was integrated into the film:

1. In certain areas, it does stick to a very cliche set of predictable melodic lines.
2. Utterly unmemorable. This is perhaps the worst thing about it. Horner’s themes are usually so distinct and melodic, but I couldn’t remember a single part where the MUSIC spoke. It was purely background noise (and beautiful background noise at that).
3. I felt that the music relied to heavily on “tribal” percussion. I can definitely see why Horner used it, and it works nicely in certain places, but I felt it was overused.
4. I couldn’t pick out an instrumental voice to save my life. The music very intense, and I never quite heard a section where a single voice (with the exception of actual vocals) was featured.
5. The soundtrack seemed purely accessory to the story. It was never given a chance to stand out. While the action was breathtaking, and the CGI settings were beautiful, I felt that the music couldn’t ever keep up with them.

I’m sure I have earned the vehement disagreement of many. Feel free to illuminate any ignorance on my part, I intend to spend more time with the soundtrack.
Personally, I’m interested in what John Williams or Howard Shore would have done with things.

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Thanks for your review.

I just saw Avatar last night and despite the soundtrack having a few missed opportunities to use sound to its fullest, I enjoyed the music very much. I am not particularly knowledgeable about soundtracks, but I have not followed Horner and I did not realize the 4 note motif was a Horner trademark. I actually went searching the soundtrack blogs for hints because I thought I heard some motifs from Philip Glass’s Satyagraha mixed in. I guess not!!

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Am I the only one who get’s tears in my eyes when I hear this soundtrack? I’m not afraid to say that even though I’m a guy. Music is so powerful, and this soundtrack just hit the spot somehow.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 30th, 2009 at 10:10 pm

So happy you enjoyed it! Scores that truly pushes you emotionally are the really great scores.

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“In this case, this is his best score since Beyond Borders in 2003.”

I like the ‘Avatar’ score allot, i’ve been listening to it pretty much non-stop since it was released, but in my opinion he has written better scores since ‘Beyond Borders’, which i agree is a wonderful score. I love love love the score he wrote for ‘The New World’. it is such a gorgeous listen from start to finish (the track ‘Winter – Battle’ being the exception). i think it’s truly one of his best scores of all time. a score i think not everyone has ever heard or heard of, probably because it wasn’t written for a huge film like ‘Titanic’ or ‘Avatar’. I even think the song ‘Listen to the Wind, is better then his other songs.

another of his scores that i have listened to over and over again is ‘The Life Before Her Eyes’. i remember the score got terrible reviews (and maybe that makes it a guilty pleasure), but i really find it soothing and emotional. i think it’s one of his best and most original.

has anyone heard these and am i the only one who loves them as much if not more then ‘Avatar’?

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
December 31st, 2009 at 9:55 am

Funnily enough, as a James Horner fan, I haven’t found the love for The New World. I really liked The Life Before Her Eyes though (You can read my review here: http://soundtrackgeek.com/2008/05/20/soundtrack-review-the-life-before-her-eyes-by-james-horner-2008/), but in my opinion Beyond Borders and Avatar beats it hands down.

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I have to say that although my fanboyism shows, taken together “The Wrath of Khan” and “The Search for Spock” are his two best scores (taken together–if I picked one it would be TWOK, but the shared music unity between the two films is excellent, and its too bad Star Trek IV had the most abysmal score I can think of off the top of my head.) “Genesis Countdown”, at the very least, is one of his best cues (I’m searching youtube for everyone else’s picks too though )

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My only comment might be to consider Carl Orff’s “Carmina Burana” while listening to Horner’s “War”.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 1st, 2010 at 6:10 pm

Now THAT’S epic

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I need the song where Eywa heard Jake’s prays and the birds came from the sky to help him. its a choair..

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First of all, you cannot review the Avatar score by not reviewing James Horner as a composer, so I’ll do just that.

I almost agree with mitch here, besides overusing such words as “new” and “grounbraking” he has a valid point here. Horner most certainly enjoys his warm place on the pedestal with his sterile scores, I think his spent. But somehow I think that Cameron knowingly choose good’ol experience and quality(as we know Cameron proclaimed himself as a rightist) over fearlessness, the question that was risen in FFC’s diary. On the other hand, Cameron has choose old school composer for the old school script and not for the revolutionary sfx, maybe he had to stop there, willingly or not. The movie needs all the money it can get. In the big picture it all does make sense. In nowadays people still like epicnes and will like it in distant future, but I think they will never put it in first place over… yes, the fresh factor. Having said that the soundtrack wasn’t fresh and the viewer has the right to be slightly disappointed over the choices that were made.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 5th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

While I disagree on the notion that I have to review James Horner as a composer when reviewing one of his scores, it’s certainly up for discussion. Horner sur didn’t help when in certain interviews he claimed it’s new and groundbreaking. Guess what Horner, it sure isn’t, not for most people anyway. To be fair, I didn’t know what he was talking about when he mentioned new and groundbreaking. Was it themes, the score in general, new sounds and instruments… who knows. The point is that people are getting annoyed by this and automatically think he was talking about the score in general.

I do think Cameron got exactly what he wanted, actually he got more than he wanted as usual with Horner and so did I.

Everyone has the right to be disappointed with the score, but what is surprising to me is that “no one” saw it coming. I saw it a mile away, I knew it wasn’t going to be experimental or new. I was just looking forward to a new Cameron/Horner collaboration and I wasn’t disappointed, quite the opposite.

At the end of the day its every man for himself and just because I wrote a review and stated my honest opinion in comments and the review itself doesn’t mean people agree with me (I sure hope not!)

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i was just watching avatar and i have to say, that the score is the most dissapointed of the year. it sounds like a mix of “the lion king” and “titanic”. horner is just repeating himself in the badest way. this score has no soul, sorry!

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I love Avatar and the soundtrack sounds good. JAMES CAMERON IS BOMB DIGGITY! haha anyways, there is this song that I love called New Again by Taking Back Sunday, and the lyrics sound like they were made for this movie. So if anyone is interested, they could look up the lyrics on lyrics.com and tell me what they think, to see if I am just way too obsessed with Avatar to think clearly! Thanks! =D

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I just came back from the cinema, having seen “Avatar”. The only moment I was taken out of the movie because of Horner’s music was during the *SPOILER* final battle between Jake and the general in the mech, when I heard some distinct, inapproriate similarities in music to “The Wrath Of Khan”. Otherwise the music was serviceable enough to be decent, but nothing groundbreaking.

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ken wiggins Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

I got the ‘Avatar’ soundtrack cd at Christmas and have been listening to it daily since. As I said in a previous post, I approached the movie with a great sense of anticipation at what Horner would create for it, only to come away with a distinct sense of disappointment. However, the more you listen to the cd, the more this feeling evaporates. Right from the opening section of ‘You don’t Dream…’ Horner hits the haunting, unearthly beat he is looking for, and the spell is not broken until the opening bars of the pop track by Leona Lewis. I don’t know of a Horner score that is packed with so many ideas, or one that deploys such a formidable range of musical options: solo voice, choir, ethnic instrumentation and full-on orchestra are welded together by Horner with remarkably accomplished expertise. Each cue is musically interesting, and much of the work impressive, and occasionally brilliant. Horner knows the unique nature of the movie demands magic for the ears, and on ‘Bioluminescence…’ for example, this is certainly what he delivers. I think the main theme is spot-on, although curiously its true gorgeousness is not fully revealed until the solo soprano rendition at the beginning of ‘Becoming one of the People…’. The arrangement is absolutely stunning, and a clear indicator that Horner is at the top of his game. Despite the complex, multi-layered ‘epic’ feel developed in parts of the score, arguably the outstanding moment is the unforgettable solo female voice at the conclusion of ‘Jake’s First Flight’. The profound emotional impact of a fragile human voice shows how well Horner succeeds at the intimate as well as the ‘epic’ level. Perhaps the weakest idea on offer is what may be regarded as a truncated version of the theme from Horner’s ‘Four Feathers’ (2002). This is introduced for the first time in ‘Becoming one of the People…’, and we hear it again in the midst of ‘War’. Whereas in ‘Four Feathers’ Horner unleashes the theme with memorably sweeping brilliance (during the cue ‘A Coward no Longer’), in ‘Avatar’ the appearance of a reduced adaptation of it simply lacks strength. That one gripe aside, in overall terms the score, as packaged on cd, is a most rewarding listening experience, and I always feel like starting again as soon as it finishes. I would certainly give it a nine out of ten rating, which I most definitely would not have done straight after my viewing of the movie itself.
This brings us to the main difficulty with the score as a complete entity. The music for ‘Avatar’ lacks the ‘instant appeal’ of works such as AR Rahman’s music for ‘Slumdog Millionaire’ last year, or indeed that composed by Horner himself for ‘Titanic’, which went on to become the biggest selling cd of 1998. It has not gone without notice that despite the galloping success of ‘Avatar’, Horner’s score failed to secure the Golden Globe the other week. I have not seen the movie ‘Up’ and have no knowledge of the score. If the music is superior to Horner’s material for ‘Avatar’ then fair enough. But a pretty score that is easy on the ear is going to make an immediately favourable impression with the public. In contrast, you have to put an effort in to get the most out of the ‘Avatar’ soundtrack, really paying attention to what’s on the cd, and in terms of winning awards at this time of the year, this puts Horner at a distinct disadvantage. It is possible that Horner saw this problem coming down the line when he opted to record part of the score as a pop track. ‘I See You’ is an attractive production in that style, and Leona Lewis performs it beautifully. Here perhaps is the perfect key to unlock a demanding score, but if that was Horner’s intention, his attempt failed to persuade the voters at the Globes. As an unapologetically devout Horner fan, I would like to see him win the Academy Award, assuming he is nominated. I feel the ‘Avatar’ soundtrack has more than enough quality to deserve it. But realistically, the success of ‘Up’ at the Golden Globes must mean that Horner has at best no more than an outside chance of winning. What a shame! To anybody interested in film music I would say, don’t just watch the movie, listen to the cd! And don’t look at the cover and think ‘ok, I See You’. Put it in the player and allow yourself to be transported by the music; before long, just like me, you will find yourself exclaiming ‘wow, I Hear You!’

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 10:55 pm

Ken,

Wow what a phenomenal analysis of one of the best scores in 2009. After reading it, I immediately grabbed my Avatar CD and yet again I hear things I hadn’t heard before. People are not giving Horner credit for the amazing and complex work he has done for Avatar because they are too busy finding flaws and the similarities to previous scores. It’s a shame, and I agree with you that this is award-worthy material. Up seems to have the upper hand so to speak, but you never know. I certainly expect an Academy Award nomination for Avatar at the very least, but I know I will be surprised, pleasantly so, if Horner wins it.

I say bravo to you sir for this outstanding comment. You certainly know your Horner and then some. Wow, I hear you indeed.

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Can someone explain to me what this “Rachmaninoff 4-note motif” is? I’ve googled around and have gotten absolutely nothing about it. It doesn’t exist on wikipedia and web searches just keep pointing to this site…

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
January 29th, 2010 at 4:38 am

Here is Rachmaninoff’s 4-note motif:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUjsonjLGmg

It starts with it and is heard 3 times in the first 30 seconds.

Compare to James Horner’s Enemy at the Gates (Which is full of references to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDurzP2gUlU

You’ll hear it after 3 seconds, then two more times in the first 30 seconds.

People are apparently obsessed with it, don’t know why

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ken wiggins Reply:
January 29th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

if you repeat the phrase ‘James Horner score, James Horner score’ to yourself several times it’ll give you a good idea of what the ‘four-note motif’ sounds like. It is regularly a feature of Horner’s brass writing. Scores with no significant use of the brass section generally don’t include it, so don’t look for it on ‘Field of Dreams’ or ‘House of Sand and Fog’. The orthodox view is that Horner uses it to denote evil or danger. It can crop up in a range of dramatic contexts, such as scenes of battle or conflict. Horner mixes it expertly to maintain energy and momentum on a number of cues in ‘Troy’. An interesting exception is ‘Iris’, where it is adapted for strings/brass in a more warmly thematic variation. The brass section gets a fair shout on the ‘Avatar’ score, which gives Horner an opportunity to quote the motif on a couple of the cues. On the opening cue, the magnificent ‘You don’t Dream…’, Horner’s use of the motif is deliberately restrained and understated, as if he is flagging to the viewer/listener that conflict is coming, not quite yet, but be ready for it! So I think Horner’s employment of the motif is all about context-what’s up on the screen and how he chooses to reflect it as a composer. When employed on a film he has strong instincts about what is required, and generally he gets it right; the four-note motif is just one item in the ‘bag of tricks’ that he can bring to a score, but only if he feels it is adding something of value to the finished work.

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I didn’t read the whole review, and I didn’t read all the responses. Any objective criticism left the review once I got to the part where the reviewer tried to justify Horner recycling his music; the ‘if the music is good, the music is good’ part, which any reasonable soundtrack enthusiast is going to reject as a valid argument for not churning out something born in creativity and originality rather than reusability. The argument of ‘if the music is good, the music is good’ is absurd… Horners soundtracks of today are tired and old.. the same kind of tired and old that you get if you turn your mp3 player on to repeat a single song… yeah, it’s fun for the first 5 plays, and then it just gets old, regardless of how good the song is.

As has already been noted here, the main ‘good guy’ theme in Avatar is from Glory, the main ‘bad guy’ theme is from Enemy at the Gates, and he has a dozen of his other movie themes shoved in there too.

Horner is no longer a composer, he is an editor, plain and simple. He no longer writes music, he slices and dices previous work to create “new” work that is no more original than the source material he steals it from.

Horner had a streak of brilliance when he completed A Beautiful Mind, but scores prior to and after that use the same recycled mumbo jumbo that Avatar does; only not so absurdly noticeable as it is in Avatar. I didn’t even know who did the score for Avatar prior to seeing it, and yet 20 minutes into the movie, I knew exactly who it was based exclusively on music I’ve heard before, for years.

Horner is in a creative rut. Using your own music a handful of times might be excusable if you altered and/or improved it in some fashion to a degree where the improvement could be seen as ingenuity rather than copying. Using it over and over and over as Horner does is inexcusable. He is lacking creativity, and even though he used to be hands down my favorite composer, he has now become a blight on an industry that is noted almost exclusively for an artist’s ability to be original, or in other words, composers that succeed both in creating a score that works while watching a movie, as well as a standalone piece to be enjoyed when listening at any time while at the same time having at least a spark of originality.

I consider his score to be an absolute insult to fans, and I consider his nominations to be an insult to the other composers who actually bothered to write something for their movies last year instead of just regurgitate.

In conclusion, no, ‘if the music is good, the music is good’ has never been more untrue.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
February 6th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

I think you are wrong on your reasoning. “yeah, it’s fun for the first 5 plays, and then it just gets old, regardless of how good the song is.” How is this sentence even remotely true? So if it was the best song in the world, you would never listen to it more than 5 times? That I find very strange, but maybe it’s just me.

“I didn’t even know who did the score for Avatar prior to seeing it, and yet 20 minutes into the movie, I knew exactly who it was based exclusively on music I’ve heard before, for years.” Really? First of all I find it shocking that you didn’t even know who did the score before you watched it. How did you not pick that up among all the hype? It’s a mark of a quality composer if you can recognize that it’s him or her 20 minutes into the movie in my opinion. Think about it. If a composer constantly changed style for every score, I don’t think that would be very enjoyable for anyone.

It’s funny that you attack Horner for lack of originality while every composer imitate. What is worse? Imitating himself or some other artist? The latter of course. Giacchino for example, who is being heralded for his score to Up, lifted the main theme for Up from a piece written in the 70s. Giacchino does steal from himself though, at least he used to. Besides, when has originality been the trademark for quality? Originality is dead, good music is not.

And yes, good music is still good music no matter how you look at it.

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Bob Dole Reply:
March 8th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

“I think you are wrong on your reasoning. “yeah, it’s fun for the first 5 plays, and then it just gets old, regardless of how good the song is.” How is this sentence even remotely true?”

- Don’t take the sentence out of context. There is nothing in there that suggests a song’s complete life is limited to 5 plays. Using the same material over and over and over does not qualify as original.

“Really? First of all I find it shocking that you didn’t even know who did the score before you watched it. How did you not pick that up among all the hype?”

- I’m not interested in aliens, and I’m not interested in seeing moving about aliens. Trailer music is not equal to score music and I don’t watch commercials (DVR). Thus, I had NO idea whatsoever about this film prior to release and was roped into seeing it with a friend purely for the 3d.

“It’s funny that you attack Horner for lack of originality while every composer imitate. What is worse? Imitating himself or some other artist?”

Yes, it is very funny, isn’t it. But you fail to realize there is a difference between regurgitation/copying, and inspiration. Goldsmith and Williams have been some of the most influential composers ever, but that doesn’t mean every 3rd movie I go to plays the Star Wars theme now does it… which again illustrates that just because music is “good” doesn’t mean it should be recycled because you’ve lost your creative spirit.

“It’s a mark of a quality composer if you can recognize that it’s him or her 20 minutes into the movie in my opinion.”

LMAO.. the mark of a quality composer is to be able to recognize him STYLISTICALLY… I shouldn’t be able to recognize the EXACT SONG from the score he ripped it from, which is precisely what I was able to do.

Kudos to the academy for not honoring Horner with an award for music that is no more original than the movie it went along with.

I didn’t read the rest of the comments given there is little point to debating the merit of a stolen soundtrack when the whole point of a soundtrack is to produce something original to the specific film it is being scored for. I laugh at the notion of ‘good music is good music’.. that works for your itunes playlist, it does not work for film music, otherwise we’d be seeing Jimi Hendrix scoring films like Dances With Wolves…afterall, good music is good music, right?

Regardless even if his score is good music (and it is, but that doesn’t make it a good score), it wasn’t created for the film and thus it is not a true score. It fits by mere coincidence, which is hardly something to recognize someone for.

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Jorn Tillnes Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 9:34 am

“Kudos to the academy for not honoring Horner with an award for music that is no more original than the movie it went along with.”

Yeah Kudos to the academy to give it to a score and composer that blatantly copies the style and melody from someone else. That is of course way better.

Bob Dole Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

As already mentioned, there is a difference between taking inspiration from others people’s work, and blatantly copying your own.

If you cannot see the difference, then you have no credibility to be assessing what is a “good soundtrack” over what is “good music”. Those are not the same.

Jorn Tillnes Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 7:48 am

If we were talking about inspiration, that’s one thing, but we weren’t. At least I wasn’t.

ken wiggins Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 8:24 pm

‘Bob Dole’, please allow me to address your objections to James Horner’s work on ‘Avatar’. James Horner makes music within very clearly defined parameters–familiar boundaries that have been staked out over the last 30 years during which he has scored perhaps in the region of 120 films. However, just because his musical vocabulary has now become recognisable does not mean that he has ceased to be creative within his given limits. Just because pieces of music sound similar does not mean they are the same. There is a difference; the difference is the creative part. Genuinely original music, ie work that cannot be compared to something that has gone before, is exceptionally rare, and I think that applies to all avenues of musical composition, not just film scoring, or for that matter the music of James Horner.
It is indeed the case that the initial response to the ‘Avatar’ score, at least for those with a forensic knowledge of Horner’s music, is one of disappointment, as it does appear to abound with familiar markers from his back catalogue. However, the beauty of the cd is that it gets better the more you listen to it, and it soon becomes evident that there is a great deal of new James Horner music to be appreciated. It is quite wrong to suggest that he completed a score for the movie without actually writing any music along the way.
Take the opening cue, the sublime ‘You Don’t Dream…’. This serves to showcase three distinct ideas. The first, utilising a solo female voice, a favourite Horner instrument, successfully plants the listener in a remote futuristic environment; the middle section shifts into a torrid, darkly intense orchestral passage, which in turn gives way to a hypnotic ripple of synthesizers and strings, perpetuating an air of anticipation in advance of the following cue. All three parts are new pieces of music. It is true that the cue has a few restrained brass renditions of the hackneyed ‘4-note motif’ embroidered into it. But that aside, the overall fabric of the cue is entirely new. At least the damage is limited by use of the motif in a more subtle, even symbolic way, possibly to prefigure events enacted later in the drama, as played out on ‘Destruction of Hometree’ and ‘Shutting down Grace’s Lab’.
This leads us to the second cue, ‘Jake enters his Avatar World’, where Horner brilliantly generates feelings of pure wonder yet underpinned by a sense of tension, particularly with the use of pizzicato strings, culminating in a robust blast of the main theme. This is the most sublime moment of the score, so far. It is true that the build-up rekindles the delicate ‘forest’ motif from ‘Apocalypto’, but here the idea is subtly embellished, and its inclusion works at an ‘added value’ level. Aside from that, this is once again new music. Furthermore, the sheer authority that Horner imposes on the proceedings shows him to be a master bringing all his many years of experience expertly into play. And so it goes on, you get the idea; and there is much more to savour over the full length of the score.
I do not agree that the score is an insult to the fans, and that the award nominations are insult to other composers. In the initial instance Horner was commissioned by James Cameron, a man who is, by all accounts, a notorious perfectionist. ‘Avatar’ is a $300 million movie, every detail of which was sweated by Cameron over the course of several years until it was finally completed. There can be no doubt that the music to go on the soundtrack was a matter of the greatest concern to Cameron. It had to come up to his rigorous standards. If Horner’s contribution failed to win Cameron’s unqualified approval, there can be little doubt that Horner would have been replaced on the project. But as we know this eventuality did not come about. It is very interesting to read Cameron’s comments on the liner notes of the cd. His praise of Horner’s efforts is exceedingly generous, and note in particular the remarkable statement that ‘he [James Horner] knew that the fate of the movie rested on his shoulders’. This is extraordinary when you consider that although Cameron was staking his career, and a great deal of Fox capital, on new 3D photographic technology, the admission is made that the film’s success hinged ultimately on the music devised by the composer. Now that the film has grossed $2 billion worldwide, Cameron’s faith in Horner has to be 100% vindicated, and criticisms directed at the score have to be put in perspective. If James Cameron isn’t insulted by the score, why should anyone else be? The award nominations are indicators that the score is recognised as being one of quality. It’s that simple. I do not believe that Horner’s fellow composers, with whom he is competing for the awards, are feeling insulted either. More likely, they are wondering whether they could have met Cameron’s expectations as successfully as Horner did on this project. The photograph of the two on the sleeve of the cd illustrates the rapport they have. I suspect no one gets to be this much at ease with James Cameron unless they are as fiercely passionate, and as dedicated to hard work and perfectionism as he is. Draw your own conclusions. I conclude with this thought–anyone who doesn’t think the ‘Avatar’ score has many excellent qualities isn’t listening to it properly!

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[...] Soundtrack Review for Avatar (2009) [...]

I may be the only person on this forum who does not consider James Cameron to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I went into “Avatar” expecting “Dances With Smurfs” and got exactly that: stunning visuals wrapped around a tired white-man-savior fantasy. The soundtrack did not move me to tears or even stand out much for me. Despite my fondness for the “Wrath of Khan” and “Glory” soundtracks, I finished the movie without even realizing Horner had done the score.

Later, while listening to Cinemagic on Sirius XM, I could have sworn I heard the strains of “Glory” only to turn around and discover it was a piece from “Avatar”. It didn’t surprise me that the soundtrack was as derivative as the movie’s plot. And it hasn’t surprised me that further research has revealed numerous other examples of self-plaigiarism.

I agree that this has to be intentional on Horner’s part, and he doesn’t see anything wrong with it. I’m not so sure that it’s a product of a grand tapestry he’s weaving so much as Horner never turning down a paycheck. He has more composing credits in 30 years than John Williams has in 60. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Williams borrows less from “Star Wars” in his “Empire” soundtrack than Horner borrows from “Battle Beyond the Stars” in his “Wrath of Khan” score. Horner has chosen to be more prolific, therefore his efforts will be more watered down and derivative. It doesn’t make him any less a genius.

However, it does mean that I will have to enjoy Horner the way I enjoy Bing Crosby or Michael Jackson; that is, without looking too closely behind the scenes. So I’ll just relisten to my 80s Horner tracks, thank you, and leave the “Avatar” soundtrack purchases to those who haven’t heard it before.

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It does bug me that he hasn’t really come up with something new thematically. This score sounds like a compilation of everything from Star Trek II(Kahn theme) – Legends of the Fall – Titanic – Troy – Apocalypto – New World, etc all wrapped up for delivery in Avatar.

I find it hard to watch an artist progress his skills this say. I forgave him with ‘Troy’ because he only had like 2 weeks to write the score; but when you are given a year….I don’t know it just kind of disappointing.

I wonder why Cameron used Alan Silvestri for ‘The Abyss’. Its a great score and I believe he had already used Horner for Aliens. Was it a schedule conflict? I think Silvestri could have produced something amazing for ‘Avatar’.

In the meantime I get great enjoyment out of listening to Horner’s ‘The Rocketeer’. Probably one of the last films before his current style kicked in.

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i like the score “becoming one among the people.. becoming one among the na’vi ” it was cool..

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You know, I grew up listening to James Horner’s music. I almost idolized him, being a classically trained pianist and instrumental composer myself. He was the one who inspired me to become an instrumentalist. And I must say, that while my heart has broken for him in the last five years because he was relegated to indie films, I understood it. He had gotten pretty stale.

THAT BEING SAID, no one should fault his score for Avatar. I sat there transported back to the glory days (no pun intended,) of James Horner’s music. I was reminded of WHY this man took film music to a level of pop-culture phenomenon in the 90′s. His music defined the films of an entire decade, from Braveheart, to Apollo 13, to The Mask of Zorro, and of course, Titanic. He struck a chord (pun intended this time,) with the mainstream audience like no one ever had before, or since.

So, while there are some familiar references in Avatar, the score is pretty darn fresh overall. I knew it was a James Horner score almost immediately when I went to watch the movie, (and I had no prior knowledge of this before sitting down in the theater,) so I was very intrigued to see if Horner could bring a fresh voice to a new big-budget film. I was a bit skeptical, but hopeful. So with this mindset, Horner was going to have to earn it to win me over with this score. And he did. He took the magic that made him famous, that magic that makes a movie much better than it could have ever been by itself, (or if someone else did the score, frankly,) and applied it to a movie that would not be easy to score. While the movie is great, there are some times when it would be less than engaging were it not for the riveting music to underscore it. There are some LONG stretches like this, where the music is the only thing keeping the audience fully engaged for periods of minutes at a time. This is especially true in the first half of the film. And Horner pulls it off beautifully. This reviewer is right, it’s not perfect, but it’s fabulous, nonetheless. And it is FAR better than it could have been in the hands of other composers. Sure, there is some familiarity, but there is enough of a new voice there to convince me that Horner deserves a shot at being an A-list composer once again. For those of you who disagree, I quote the following:
“Self-plagiarism is [called] ‘style’” – Alfred Hitchcock

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I think that film composition has become a series of minor chords over percussion to modify the action on the screen, Unfortunately I grew up with Waxman, Herrmann, Barry, Goldsmith, The Bernstein’s, Steiner and there are very few original composers right now, Thomas Newman and his cousin Randy come to mind. I love Hans Zimmer as a catalyst but he repeats too often, Elfman is original as well, Always a treat

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I love the score.Although it reminds me of the stuff he has composed in the past.It works for this movie.I think he is the best choice for avatar.

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